Author Topic: [Restoration] Frogger - why did the frog cross the road?  (Read 141643 times)

Etienne MacGyver

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Re: [Restoration] Frogger - why did the frog cross the road?
« Reply #195 on: October 13, 2011, 10:09:12 AM »
I don't understand why you guys seem to completely ignore Béla's posting....because I think that is the key...
I bet you'll need an external amplifier.
Not ignoring, i just assumed there was an onboard amplifier since there is this potmeter setup..

Ill go back and read Bela's post again..

EDIT:

And indeed after checking the manual there is a mention of a soundboard...
(page 81 and 97)

but also there are different kinds of PCB's in that manual, so could it be that there are boards with onboard Amps ?

Is there any indication on your boardset to see whichone you got Ully ?
« Last Edit: October 13, 2011, 10:25:22 AM by Etienne »

Superully

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Re: [Restoration] Frogger - why did the frog cross the road?
« Reply #196 on: October 13, 2011, 10:41:56 AM »
I don't understand why you guys seem to completely ignore Béla's posting....because I think that is the key...
I bet you'll need an external amplifier.
Not ignoring, i just assumed there was an onboard amplifier since there is this potmeter setup..

hmmm, i'm confused! what do you mean by "external amplifier"? there's no mentioning of that in the manual and from what i've read and heard the potmeter setup should do the trick. perhaps mr caveman could chime in, i don't think he has an external amplifier ...

And indeed after checking the manual there is a mention of a soundboard...
but also there are different kinds of PCB's in that manual..
Is there any indication on your boardset to see whichone you got Ully ?

sure, there are a lot of numbers on the board, let me show you some pictures! first of all the full board set: one "complete pcb" at the bottom, "half a pcb" on top of it (i thought this was the sound board, but i'm not sure anymore)



a closeup of that "half-pcb"



two numbers on the left: 834-0069 on the top board, 834-0068 on the lower board



and another number on the top board: 834-0086



now which one is which? does this help you guys?

all i need is ... PONG - and a select few others: TOUCH ME, DRAGON'S LAIR, JOUST, ROBOTRON, MR DO, SAN FRANCISCO RUSH THE ROCK!!!

Laschek

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Re: [Restoration] Frogger - why did the frog cross the road?
« Reply #197 on: October 13, 2011, 10:42:35 AM »
The sound board is usually the upper board of the game pcb set, where the sound chips and amp are located.
I mean everything is possible, but I never had a Frogger board which needed external amplification, just the pot, and I had maybe 5 or 6. Even on Belas pic you can clearly see what should be the amp (below that selfmade pcb, just beside of one of those bigger caps, so I am a little confused why that extra circuit was necessary.  ???

Laschek

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Re: [Restoration] Frogger - why did the frog cross the road?
« Reply #198 on: October 13, 2011, 10:44:48 AM »
Am I on everybodies ignore list?  ;D
Check below that big metal thingy if you can see something like that, and if yes, check if it gets +12V:


Superully

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Re: [Restoration] Frogger - why did the frog cross the road?
« Reply #199 on: October 13, 2011, 10:46:50 AM »
Did you check if the onboard sound amp (should be an M51516) gets its required +12V?

nope, need to find it first ;). once i've found it, do i check the +12V exactly the same way as i check the +5V on a chip?

EDIT: thx for showing me a picture of it, now all i need to do is find it! 8)

Also, is -5V connected? Maybe thats needed as well, but I'm not sure if this is case for Frogger.

no idea, not on the switcher itself, but it might be powered through the other power supply ...
« Last Edit: October 13, 2011, 10:48:22 AM by Superully »
all i need is ... PONG - and a select few others: TOUCH ME, DRAGON'S LAIR, JOUST, ROBOTRON, MR DO, SAN FRANCISCO RUSH THE ROCK!!!

Etienne MacGyver

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Re: [Restoration] Frogger - why did the frog cross the road?
« Reply #200 on: October 13, 2011, 11:07:08 AM »
On page 94 of the manual, (assy 834-0069) at location "1-C" , there is a mention of -5 volts.. at a LM741 (amplifier)  so it could very well be that this is missing and that could be the reason why you dont have sound..

the schematics of the "sound board" says 834-0074 which is not in your setup as far as i can judge..

Looking again at that part of the schematics, it does look very like the Hack on bela's board, which could indicate that the onboard amp was fried..
« Last Edit: October 13, 2011, 11:10:07 AM by Etienne »

Superully

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Re: [Restoration] Frogger - why did the frog cross the road?
« Reply #201 on: October 13, 2011, 03:12:19 PM »
On page 94 of the manual, (assy 834-0069) at location "1-C" , there is a mention of -5 volts.. at a LM741 (amplifier)  so it could very well be that this is missing and that could be the reason why you dont have sound..

IC1 - is that what we're looking for?



Check below that big metal thingy if you can see something like that, and if yes, check if it gets +12V

found the b**** - the question remains: how / where do i measure the +12v?



here's a picture of the same sound amp from the other side - does that look fried or is it only flux?

all i need is ... PONG - and a select few others: TOUCH ME, DRAGON'S LAIR, JOUST, ROBOTRON, MR DO, SAN FRANCISCO RUSH THE ROCK!!!

Etienne MacGyver

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Re: [Restoration] Frogger - why did the frog cross the road?
« Reply #202 on: October 13, 2011, 03:15:10 PM »
Thats flux
Looks like they already replaced it before

EDIT:

IC1 - is that what we're looking for?

I was reffering to the position on the schematics: (the "C" on the right)  ;)



Here you see the chip, and that pin 9 is +12 volts.
Pin 2 & 6 are ground, so measure between pin 2 and 9.

Also you can see in the schematics that pin 4 of the LM471 wants -5Volt...

Oh, and maybe you ask yourself how to "count" the pins of IC's..

Like this :  ;D

« Last Edit: October 13, 2011, 03:38:23 PM by Etienne »

Laschek

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Re: [Restoration] Frogger - why did the frog cross the road?
« Reply #203 on: October 13, 2011, 03:20:37 PM »
For a start maybe you should check +12V and -5V at the PCBs connector if this is easier for you.
Frogger pinout: http://www.crazykong.com/pins/Frogger.pin.txt

Superully

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Re: [Restoration] Frogger - why did the frog cross the road?
« Reply #204 on: October 13, 2011, 07:01:28 PM »
For a start maybe you should check +12V and -5V at the PCBs connector if this is easier for you.

thx sascha, i think i've isolated the problem now: it's the +12v line!!! on the edge connector i get something like -0.25v for +12v, -5v is well within limits. with that result in mind, i started tracing back the problem. let's start from the beginning with the huge power transformator. we've talked a lot about those wires on the left of the transformer's secondary side, but we never talked about all those colorful ones on the right. all the voltages coming out of the transformer's secondary right side are correct!



all those wires (you can see them at the very bottom of the following picture) go into a small pcb (don't know what it is called) which is also part of the power supply. from what i understand, this pcb creates the -5v and the +12v.



all that's coming out "on the other side" of that pcb are a couple of wires: green is -5v, red is +12v, black is GND and white i have no idea, but it "gets lost on its way to the pcb", meaning it ends in a connector somewhere in between. when i measure black and green i get -5.19v, but when i measure black and red i get ZERO volts (when measuring red and white i get roughly -2v). this means -5v is coming out nicely here, +12v is not!



so the problem has to be on that small pcb somewhere and i'm pretty sure i've isolated it already! right before those red and green wires there are two ICs on the board, ic1 is for +12v (red wire) , ic2 for -5v (green wire).



when examining those ics closer you can clearly see burn marks on ic1 (-5v) and when looking back at the start of this is remember some smoke and a strange smell coming from somewhere on the power supply. perhaps this is where it started all!!!



now what i could do is replace that IC, but how about removing that small pcb entirely and hooking the -5v and the +12v directly up to the switcher. john "we are in the basement" has a similar setup without that board and when looking at one of his picture you can see that all the wires on the secondary side of the transformer have been removed, the small pcb is gone as well and the red and green wire are hooked up to the switcher. do you think that would work in my case as well? my setup is slightly different (+5v coming from somewhere else), but i've got the feeling this should work ...



what do you think? give it a try? or try to repair that ic / pcb?

all i need is ... PONG - and a select few others: TOUCH ME, DRAGON'S LAIR, JOUST, ROBOTRON, MR DO, SAN FRANCISCO RUSH THE ROCK!!!

PunkRockCaveman

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Re: [Restoration] Frogger - why did the frog cross the road?
« Reply #205 on: October 13, 2011, 07:11:10 PM »
I would definitely go for the switcher ... Much more reliable and stable .. If you don't mind that that is not 100% original ...

Superully

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Re: [Restoration] Frogger - why did the frog cross the road?
« Reply #206 on: October 13, 2011, 07:24:11 PM »
I would definitely go for the switcher ... Much more reliable and stable .. If you don't mind that that is not 100% original ...

i don't mind at all! that thing has to work - that's it. so simply removed the small pcb board and attach the red and green wire? i will have to check the wiring though because there are some other wires in that connector and john's setup is slightly different (e.g. on the fuse block), but theoratically it should work ...
all i need is ... PONG - and a select few others: TOUCH ME, DRAGON'S LAIR, JOUST, ROBOTRON, MR DO, SAN FRANCISCO RUSH THE ROCK!!!

level42

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Re: [Restoration] Frogger - why did the frog cross the road?
« Reply #207 on: October 13, 2011, 08:20:42 PM »
I would definitely go for the switcher ... Much more reliable and stable .. If you don't mind that that is not 100% original ...
More reliable ? I disagree.

More parts means more chance of failure. Also components are under pretty much stress (esp. caps) in a switcher.
Do not confuse being NEWER with more reliable... ;)

I'd like to see what the current Chinese swichters will do in about 30 years time....

Also....if possible, keep it original....it's part of the fun ;)

level42

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Re: [Restoration] Frogger - why did the frog cross the road?
« Reply #208 on: October 14, 2011, 10:54:37 AM »
Oops, Level42 slaps himself in the face.

I see now in what context PRC saidthat and i agree...get rid of that board since already have the switchen there...

Etienne MacGyver

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Re: [Restoration] Frogger - why did the frog cross the road?
« Reply #209 on: October 14, 2011, 11:28:55 AM »
I would fix it and throw out the switcher  ;)

I mean its just a fried 7812..

And don't we all just love old crappy hardware  ;D