Dragon's Lair Fans - Arcade Lifestyle
General Chat => Technical Area => Topic started by: level42 on May 05, 2012, 02:22:26 PM
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Thread to document the repair of Atarimania's WG6100 and Belike's WG6100 deflection board.
Must say I have seen monitors in better physical condition....lots of rust on the frame, this baby had a tough life...
One thing I notice quickly: the yoke is loose around the neck ! No rubber wedges in sight !! This can never have a good convergence this way and I wonder where the rubber wedges went....
Apart from that I forgot what the problem actually was ..... :oops:
So decided to do the usual stuff. Visually check the solderings and redo them if suspect, check the caps, check all transistors and diodes....everything seems OK.
Next check the bottle caps on the frame.....ah we got a bad one. The one under the deflection PCB is showing a short between the case and one of the pins....when I remove it it is clear why it went bust: someone installed it without using any thermal grease. There was a mica insulator though.
Hopefully I can give it a test run later today...
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Wohoo, repair in progress. ;D :spaceace:
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Cool news...
I know a Tempest cabinet that is waiting for this screen :wink:
Thanks
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I was lucky again, had the transistor in one of BR's kits. I normally never replace a transistor when they are still good, I don't see any reason to throw away perfectly working parts and transistors don't age.
Imstalled it with a new mica and some grease this time....checked for shorts to see if the legs don't touch the metal frame ( big risk with 6100s) and looks OK.
Time to test...
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Hooked it up to the SW this morning and here is the result:
http://youtu.be/kWnUzGQ1D5o
Definitely not perfect yet. I first will have to adjust the X and Y pots on the game PCB because naturally it is now set too wide (for the 25" amplifone) Apart from that it seems the red is pretty weak.
Will have to look into the neck pots and other adjustments. Of course the yoke still has to be fixed with some rubber wedges but it already looks better than I had expected with a "floating" yoke like this...
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Hmmmmmmmmmm, something just kicked me......apart from the two LEDs on the LV2000 (which should be on) I saw another LED on on the board.....it's the spot-killer LED SO the spot-killer is kicked in for some reason (without actually having a reason because deflection IS running fine. If this happens, you can _still_ get some picture by turning up the brightness completely.
I'm pretty sure that this is what is happening with this one.....
Will need to check the parts in the spot-killer circuit...
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Ok checked all the parts in the spot killer detection section....all seem fine.....
Even checked the parts on the neckboard, the only thing I'm not completely sure of I'd the Zenerdiode ZD500. Should I measure about half a volt in both directions on that ?
Any other reason for the spot killer to kick in while everything seems fine further ? Honestly I didn't measure the supply (or any other in fact )voltages yet.
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Honestly I don't understand a lot of things as I'm very bad in electronics ;D but it becomes better :)
Thanks
Franck
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Hooked up Béla's board yesterday. It gave a picture in the beginning but it looked very weird, all mashed...
The spot killer circuit also seemed to kick in intermittently. I also noticed the LEDs of the LV2000 going brighter and weaker....when I touched the board it seemed to jump to a bright LED on both sides.
Was the LV2000 already installed Béla ? The GND soldering in the middle is loose so I bet that is the cause for the poor functioning of that part. Also, for some reason, they kept the LV2000 a bit up from the main PCB, there is no reason for that, in fact the PCB will nicely support the LV2000 if you install it flush to the main PCB. Going to desolder the LV2000 and install it again an have another run.
After a couple of minutes of running the horizontal (x) deflection failed, so I only had a vertical line on the screen just like you described Béla. Obviously something is heating up and can't handle it...maye a bad solder joint maye a bad part....
With Franck's board I was less lucky this time. It now produced an image that I couldn't even get close to be focussed and everything seemed zoomed in. This normally is called blooming and is caused by a too low HV and/or B+ voltage.....sadly I didn't have that problem before....
I didn't examine the HV pcb yet but it worked OK before....
I really need to make a set up where I can work on it, being able to measure stuff around the board...will have to move the SW cockpit and put a table behind it to put the monitor on....not this weekend though, sorry guys, it's Rommelmarkt at the marching band clubhouse Friday evening and Saturday. See you there Robin ! ;)
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Yeah, the LV 2000 was already installed when I received the cab.
I can imgaine the hassle you make every time when you hook up the pcb to the cab, many thanks for taking your time and energy for this. :spaceace:
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Yeah, the LV 2000 was already installed when I received the cab.
I can imgaine the hassle you make every time when you hook up the pcb to the cab, many thanks for taking your time and energy for this. :spaceace:
No problem, didn't write that to give you guys a bad feeling but more as a kick in my own butt to get my workroom done (it will happen this summer!) and to release my frustration over it ;)
And....you already paid with a nice brick :P
Béla, do you have any idea _who_ installed that LV2000 ?? Because with all respect, but I think it's the worst solder job I've seen for a long time....
So much, that I fear for the LV2000 ! It looks the guy had a lot of problems installing it and tried to fix it in many ways. Even some tracks came loose from the LV2000 and apparently he tried to glue it back with some black stuff (pics later).
Anyway....it just happens so that I have a LV2000 light here at hands which is owned by Franck. I was stupid enough to order one for him because I thought it wasn't on there already, but there was one :S.
I will first try to get this one OK but if it's not working out it might be an option to buy Francks' although he did say he wanted it for his Space Duel....
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OMG, I just realized what has been happening with this LV2000.
The guy who installed it probably assumed that the three leads coming from the PCB were "left over" of forgotten to cut and HE CUT THEM before installing it !!
I guess what happened next was either the whole thing not working OR some parts blew as it looks like one of the voltage regulators has been replaced already....
To fix it some leads were soldered to the solderings where he cut them and the third (ground) was apparently very badly re-installed....
This has all to do with an art that is loosing ground quickly in this world: RTFM !!!!
You will not believe how many times in my work I have to deal with installers (and it's both younger and older one's) who simply install stuff without reading the manuals !!! We have specially made a booklet with all stuff we sell with clear drawing how everything should be installed which we include with every project. However nobody seems to check them. Instead of investing 5 minutes time to have a look and do it right the first time, they seem to prefer having to do it all again, taking hours and hours and hours......sigh....
O well...I think it's best to replace the two diodes. Those are the leads that go in the PCB... Impossible to make it work with extra solderingsbecause these will melt when soldering it into the PCB of course.....
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Hmmm, I also had a feeling that something is wrong with that LV 2000 installation after reading the manual.
I received the cab like this, I guess Archer installed it or the previous owner. ???
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Well.....I really don't want to step on anyone's toes, and some people have great talents in certain things and others in other things but whoever it was....
Something dropped back in my mind when I watched the pics I shot (it's great to make macro shots...they reveal everything :)) AFAIR the LV2000's were sold as kits for some time. I think I now know the reason why they STOPPED selling them as kits.
I'm 99,9% sure that this was a kit.
This was the first thing I noticed about the LV2000. The GND pin in the middle is bent up and it is loose. If I press down the LV2000 the pin stays ! (It's right between the 4 resistors in the center):
http://gallery.me.com/andre.huijts/101108/DSCF0112/web.jpg?ver=13370233030001
Another weird thing: Why is this so high over the deflection PCB ?? I've installed 3 or so LV2000's and you can easily push them all the way down if you cleared the solder holes good enough. Nothing can short on this side....why is it so high then ?
(http://gallery.me.com/andre.huijts/101108/DSCF0114/web.jpg?ver=13370233210001)
Oh no....no-no-no...:
(http://gallery.me.com/andre.huijts/101108/DSCF0116/web.jpg?ver=13370233280001)
Sigh: http://youtu.be/r2eBlCpmq4M
Here....the goo failed: I can move the pin all the way....
(http://gallery.me.com/andre.huijts/101108/DSCF0117/web.jpg?ver=13370233360001)
But also: look at those solderings. Bulbs everywhere ! Too much solder used...this is the work of an amateur. Even my son solders better (it really isn't that hard if you have the right tools, temperature, and a little explanation).
I tried to remove the goo. Regretfully it _was_ strong enough to completely mess up the tracks:
(http://gallery.me.com/andre.huijts/101108/DSCF0120/web.jpg?ver=13370242040001)
I am close to calling this FUBAR....so.....Franck, do you still desperately want that LV2000 light or are you willing to sell it to Béla ? It may cost a bit, but I want your WG6100 to be reliable in the future too Béla.....
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Are the components busted ?
if not, you can remove the bulbs of solder and repair some tracks with some solid wire ?
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Let me say it this way: If that WG6100 would have to stay in one of my games, I would throw this in the dustbin now and order a new LV2000.
I _MIGHT_ be able to get it better redoing ALL solderings, fixing the tracks with wire, replacing the cut-off parts so they have long leads, but I would still not be 100% sure about it...and it will stay a mess one way or the other.......and I don't like that.....I don't want it to die anymore......I don't want fires in my precious cab......
Anyway, choice is up to you Béla....if Franck still wants his LV2000 light I can order another one for you but it wil of course take some time to get here....
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:o :o :o
Wtf is that black slime on my LV 2000? ??? :o :D
You are right André, even a noob like me would solder it better.
I would gladly buy that one from Franck, but I will also place an order for other parts to Arcadeshop.com this week, I can also order some from them. ;)
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So....I could use the one I have here and you could order a LV2000 lite from AS and then send that one to Franck (or if he has time enough bring it to Eurocade)..... ?
I do think the one on Franck's is OK.
Franck ?
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Yes you can!!!! ;) ;) ;)
(Sorry for the delay of my answer, not a lot of time for arcade for the moment :()
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Thanks Franck. ;)
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Brilliant guys, but hold your horses with ordering a new LV2000....
I sent the pics and the story to Jeff Hendrix who makes and sells the LV2000 and he offered a new one if I would ship it back !!!!!
So I took that offer naturally.
Anyway, I think Jeff deserves a fair bit of free advertising for this EXCELLENT service:
For all your WG6100 power supply problems, get a LV2000
(http://www.vector-repair.com/LV2000orig.jpg)
or LV2000 lite:
(http://www.vector-repair.com/LV2000light.jpg)
http://www.vector-repair.com
....or at your favorite arcade parts dealer ;)
I mean, this is hardly his fault...yet he still offers to replace it. I am not the buyer, nor is Béla directly and still this great service.
IMHO this is the kind of stuff that makes you a returning customer ! :spaceace:
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Sounds great and I really appreciate that you asked him. :spaceace:
This kind of customer service is quite rare these days.
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Thats the way i like to do buniness!
Very nice gesture of him. :spaceace:
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Back on these...
I had a very "enlarged" picture with one of the deflection boards, something that usually is called "blooming". This means everything is too large on the screen. The cause is a low High Voltage, and thus a low B+. I measured it and indeed it was only 150V. Probably because I replaced the pot on the HV board, I can't even remember :oops: :oops:
Anyway, adjusted the pot and got the supposed voltage of 181V and focus and size of screen were normal again.
Now, I was missing the red color and the overall picture still looks not perfect yet, just not what it is supposed to be.
Removed the neck board and checked all the parts in the Red amplifier circuit, everything seems OK. I cleaned the pots (for now) and redid ALL the solderings on the board. Some of the wires that run directly to the board were still "hanging on" with just one or two strands, so I removed the "pins" to which they are soldered to the board and instead soldered them directly.
Now I'll have to test again....tomorrow...
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Thanks for the update. ;)
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Pffff.....did I mention I really am not too fond of WG6100s ? ;D
I completely resoldered everything on the neck-board. Hooked it up today and saw......nothing.
Turned op the Screen pot on the HVT and there is picture (the wrong way, with the bright spot in the middle, but at least deflection is running OK.
Spot killer LED is on though.
Check B+ again: 27 Volts......huh ?!?!
Tried adjusting the HV board pot, no change at all.
Oh no here we go again, removing the HV cage... checked transistors => OK, checked resistors => OK checked the Pot => OK.
Can't locate my ESR meter at the moment to check the caps......where did I leave it .....?
Someone on KLOV forum suggested ZD902 might be bad even though it tests OK in diode test. Could well be....will put it back in and see what voltages come out of it, should be something like 150V
When I hook up the other board I have absolutely no deflection at all.....well sometimes the Horizontal works.....
Worst thing is tomorrow and wednesday we have extra rehearsals....hopefully thursday to be continued....
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Thanks for the update. ;)
+1 ;D
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Yeah, the sad thing is that I seem to be going two steps back instead of one step forward each time I work on them...I want these done and back to you guys, won't be doing anything else in the hobby before I can send them back, hopefully fixed !!!
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Found the ESR meter again yesterday. Checked all caps, all seem OK, one shows a "R only" at 2,2 Ohms but this may be caused by a 2,2 Ohms resistor that is in parallel with the cap, will have to desolder the cap to check it out of circuit
(C914).
I have a hunch that ZD902 may be bet even though it measures OK, the FAQ also points into this direction.
Going to have a look if I still have a cap-kit because I think it might be included and I also want to replace the pot...
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I barely dare to add to this thread anymore but.....ok here goes:
I got a fully repaired 6100 here now (from Thwocker's Tempest) and this is great so I can do some comparing steps instead of "flying blind".
Working on one Atarimania's deflection boards now and I first discovered the weirdest thing ever. I was going through all the transistors again , checking them for shorts. I wasn't getting any shorts but because I was now comparing the values between the good working deflection board and the "bad" one's, I suddenly had some different values on Q800 and Q801. To my amazement, there were NO shorts BUT the transistors showed the values "the other way around" ! This meant that they were PNP transistors instead of NPN's !!!
I checked the markings on them and looked up the datasheet and sure enough I was right !
(http://forums.arcade-museum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=172892&d=1394742050)
These two transistors are in the spot killer circuit and I guess as long as there is no need for the spot killer to become activated, this wasn't much of a problem for the board to work. However, if such a situation would arise, the spot killer would for sure have failed and burned a nice hole into the tube (maybe that's why Atarimania's tube has such bad burns in the center ?)
Now...when I looked further both Q801 and Q802 had the same partnr. as Q800.....and the markings looked EXACTLY the same.
Also: I looked at the solderings, and they looked EXACTLY as dull (and as poorly soldered) as all the others on the board !!!
My conclusion: someone royally screwed up in the factory and grabbed the wrong transistors for Q801 and Q802 !!! It was just never noticed. Seeing the general quality of Wells Gardner (and it's obvious poor quality check system) I am actually not that much surprised at all !
The thing is: normally I just go over the board with the DVM in diode check setting, not caring much about NPN or PNP because you expect these to be correct, just focusing on shorts on transistors. Without the matching board to compare I would never have noticed !!! ANOTHER LESSON LEARNED, NEVER expect things to be as you expect them to be.
OK....so I replaced both transistors with the correct one's (2N3906 out, 2N3904 in)and tried it on the otherwise 100% working monitor.
Got picture, but....not entirely perfect. It looked like this when just started up:
(http://forums.arcade-museum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=173611&d=1395255608)
However, the longer it was running, the more of the missing lines appeared....until I got almost a full picture (had to leave for a while then).
I need some freeze spray :P
The really weird thing is that the vertical lines are mostly fine.....but the horizontals are missing..... any way, it seems to be temperature related...and it is also on all colors exactly the same...
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nice find
are you going to use the freeze spray to find the component that fails cold and works warmed up?
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Yup that's the idea ! :)
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hmm interesting
i never seen something like this, but who am i ;D
Anyway, what happens to that spot where the stuff is missing if you let a game running ?
is it missing like a circle there that is growing to completion or do you have lines there too ?
will be dificult to fill that area i think, because its vector ?
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Man, that really sucks, I wonder what they paid their employees :roll:
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Here's a repair log from a W&G6100 which I worked through recently, Level42 said it was OK to post it in this thread,I posted this on UKVAC so you may have seen it already, but its good to share tech info to make it easier for us to get them fixed when they break.
////////////////POST 1
I've got a 6100 that failed, B+ Video is not sitting at 180VDC, some background to the fault...
The monitor did work when I picked up the cab, I could never get the game board (tempest) full size on the screen using the board pots, after being on for a while I started getting what looked like horizontal collapse from the top to centre(if the monitor was in horizontal position) I recapped the Deflection board, recapped the HV board and fitted an LV2000, the monitor still worked. One day after being turned on and playable, the display went dead.
What I've found so far...
On P900 connector I had 27/-27VDC on the correct pins but only 25V on B+ Video which should have been 180VDC.
* I found R920 Open circuit. REPLACED.
* I found R918 (HV adjust pot OC) replaced. Cheers Phil!
* All other resistors tested in spec according to the schematics.
* All transistors were removed and tested. All were fine except Q905 a 2N6557? Base/Emitter was open circuit in both directions using diode test on my multimeter.
I replaced this tonight with a MJE15030G which I think is a current equivalent? Can someone please confirm... I understand the the pinout is different and modded it accordingly to suit the HV board positioning.
http://www.actionpinball.com/tech/wmshv.htm (bottom half of the page) documents the difference and I did the leg re-routing and used some heatshrink to insulate the pin that routed behind the
base and collector.
Time to power up again...
P900 connector was sitting at 150VDC which seemed like a good start without having adjusted the HV pot. This voltage slowly started to decrease and within 30 seconds smoke was coming from the HV board! Doh! Q905 which I had just replaced was burning hot. Visual inspection showed that R917 has burnt, I removed it from the board and it was reading dead short, so I replaced it and checked over Q905 and confirmed the pinout was correct for the new transistor, I removed it from the board and tested it again and I read as expected.
I thought I'd fire it up to see what would happen and no smoke this time, but the VideoB+ was sitting at 75VDC, adjusting the HV pot made no difference to the voltage.
The 6100 FAQ says that if R917 smokes, Q905 is inserted backwards...
I will have another MJE15030G delivered tomorrow but don't want to put it in and watch things go up in smoke again.
Can someone please confirm what a current day Q905 (2N6557?) replacement can be used, and any ideas what may have gone wrong?
////////////////POST 2
Well I fitted an MJ340 tonight and bang, the screen came to life... MJE15030 not man enough for the job!
Not 100% but it is working. I can only get 15.KV measured at the anode 160VDC on the Video B+. I have the spot killer on too, this was originally always off started coming on recently, I need to look at what axis it is and check the measurements from the gameboard. If I turn the brightness up on the monitor I can see a line left-right with the game playing (monitor in vertical position)
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` `
` `
` `
` `
` --line-here----`
` `
` `
` `
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I'm think this is horizontal collapse? Someone please confirm. I'm sure its now a board fault, but as I'm still not able to get full HV I've got a bit more work to be getting on with. Monitor and Gameboard :( ... TBC...
////////////////POST 3
To Follow this up and close out the low B+ issue Big smile the following took place over the last week or so...
Nad sent me a few of the Zener diodes with some parts for the AVG board (thats for another thread!) once fitted I still had B+ limited to 160VDC. Time for a sanity check, I reprinted out the HV circuit and went through marking off the components, values and associated known voltages. When I got to R917 the nut finally cracked!
When I swapped it after I smoked it fitting an under rated Q905, I replaced it with a 3K3 resistor this should have been a 3.3Ohm resistor. Well after swapping that out tonight, B+ is now fully adjustable and sitting happily at 180VDC.
FIXED!
To Summarise the parts needed to fix my Low HV fault: (not including the parts I caused to fail)
R920 Open circuit. REPLACED.
R918 (HV pot) Open circuit. REPLACED.
Q905 Open circuit. (Base/Emitter fault) REPLACED with an MJE340
555 timer. Unknown fault but I tried the original IC tonight that I had replaced and B+ jumped back to 25VDC. Needless to say I didn't leave the monitor turned on for more that a few seconds...
I've now got some deflection issues on the monitor, I'll write up a post about that tomorrow.
////////////////POST 4
Following on from the Low HV problem, I now connected the monitor back up to the cab loom and was greeted with the images below:
(http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-dl1jOvCY73A/UwjTWcEAPmI/AAAAAAAAA8I/nEAbL_wcWYE/s800/2014-02-20+19.37.05.jpg)
(http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-ZLCpbt2oT1Y/UwjT8XxzRpI/AAAAAAAAA8Q/Mk3Xqi8XhY0/s800/2014-02-20+19.46.10.jpg])
Some sort of deflection issue? The game looks and plays fine on my scope.
Well I took the deflection board our and removed all the transistors and all read well out of circuit except for the last one! Q604 an MPS-U07 in the Y section was open circuit in both directions across B-E and B-C. I've ordered some ZTX653 replacements and some clip on heat sinks so I'll let you know the outcome early next week.
////////////////POST 5
Progress
(http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-nuYrt-OxjEU/UwpWLNQsWkI/AAAAAAAAA8o/Cs3jMbrzErU/s800/2014-02-23+19.39.42.jpg)
New MJE15030 fitted at Q604 with pins swapped to fit the deflection board requirements. 'X' board adjustments work fine, but on the 'Y' side I cannot make the image any larger than what is shown. Looks like Q603 is next in line for replacing with an MJE15031 once thats done and hopefully working I think I'll shotgun Q703/4 with new transistors to be on the safe side.
*EDIT* Re pincushion effect on the 6100. Is there any adjustment for it? The right side of my screen image seems to display it pretty badly, not sure if thats a function of the deflection not working properly yet or another game/monitor board I need to investigate.
////////////////POST 6
Just to confirm my thinking earlier... The 1st photo below shows the original fault once HV was sorted, the second shows what changing Q604 fixed. (Y axis issue) So my next fault is the X axis counterpart. Someone pls confirm, have I got the X/Y axis labelled the correct in the second photo for the monitor, I think its correct from my findings so far. Thanks.
(http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-dl1jOvCY73A/UwjTWcEAPmI/AAAAAAAAA8I/nEAbL_wcWYE/s1000/2014-02-20+19.37.05.jpg)
(http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-oPG9dkcIzBo/UwpxLvvYq8I/AAAAAAAAA9I/i4SamMkc4-0/s1000/2014-02-23+19.39.42.jpg)
////////////////POST 7
OK so replacing the the transistors in the 'X' section hasn't sorted the folding of the image as it did with the 'y'axis, but at least it confirms that the transistors MJE15030/31/32/33 are suitable swap outs.
I have today found the D701 in the 'X' section is short circuit its a 1N914B. I put a 1N4148 in I had spare and screen size is fully adjustable. Ordered 20 1N914B's and will swap them when they get here. I'm making some adjustments to colour bias and gains and then I'll post a photo. So far so good!
////////////////POST 8
Right, so with diode D701 replaced from the deflection board I now get a full size image and screen size position if fully adjustable.
FIXED
To summarise the parts needed to fix the deflection issue:
Q604 an MPS-U07 in the X section (Monitor in landscape position) was open circuit in both directions across B-E and B-C. Replaced with an MJE15030 (MJE15032 will also work)
D701 (1N914B) diode short circuit. Part of the Y deflection circuit. Temporarily replaced with a 1N4148.
Something that got me confused whilst looking into the X/Y issues were that the gameboard adjusters for X and Y position/size refer to the monitor being in the 'vertical' position as in fitted in the cab whereas the monitor manual talk of X/Y in term of it being mounted in horizontal position. This might be a useful tip for anyone reading this in the future looking for 6100 help.
Here's a couple of images, unfortunately I think I have some sort of board fault as the image is smaller on one side (right) of the screen. This is seen on my scope so it can't be to do with the monitor.
Closing in on the fault, I've pretty much tested all the other parts in the circuit and this is hopefully the final faulty part.
(http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-08zeBXnr2D4/UxH6vROd-rI/AAAAAAAAA_0/e32CHLd037w/s1000/2014-03-01+14.55.54.jpg)
(http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-efBrt2K-Iks/UxH6djKfr-I/AAAAAAAAA_s/lnqa3SKlPSg/s1000/2014-03-01+15.04.47.jpg)
////////////////POST 9
It turns out it was another MC1495 gone faulty on the AVG board. They're all socketed so wasn't too difficult to work out which one was bad by swapping them around. I swapped the bad one out and the image is now nice and square with very little if any pincushion. Job done! Well the EAROM is giving and error in test mode so no high scores are saving, need to have a look at that...
(http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-Gfoh35NCN_s/UxOgV9bUSqI/AAAAAAAABAI/1zSMz-yjDOQ/s1000/2014-03-02+19.43.10.jpg)
(http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-rH-CD1TMsdY/UxOgVjIFHXI/AAAAAAAABAE/Tmcy3apMJaE/s1000/2014-03-02+19.47.38.jpg)
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Nice info Smarty !
Nice scope too.....I want to buy a Rigol sooooooon....
About MPSU07's: I'm selling them ! The original one's....I can also deliver MPSU56 which work just fine instead of MPSU57s.....
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Thanks for the info. It is usefull info.... So you replaced most of that section of the board.
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By the way I've never seen a vector monitor with such straight edges ! No pincushion at all !
Yeah....Tempest has pincushion correction on the game PCB.....they skipped it on SW. The manual says instead they compensated in the monitor's yoke but I don't buy it......ALL the SW games I have seen have inward pincushion on the left and right side.
Which remids me that I still have a kit to assemble that should actually fix this.....
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I borrowed the scope from work, but no one else has a use for it so it will stay at mine until someone needs it. :)
MPSU07/56 Good to know you have some, hopefully I wont need some any time soon.
Laszo, a quick overview of the whole monitor repair goes as follows:
Capkit (HV & Deflection board), LV2000, Couple of resistors, HV pot replaced, a few transistors replaced and a bad diode.
Re the pincushion or lack of it, yes it is a very 'square' image now which I'm happy with, Its just a shame my Tempest board has gone faulty so I'm currently not playing it... I love this hobby and 30+yr old electronics.
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I borrowed the scope from work, but no one else has a use for it so it will stay at mine until someone needs it. :)
MPSU07/56 Good to know you have some, hopefully I wont need some any time soon.
Laszo, a quick overview of the whole monitor repair goes as follows:
Capkit (HV & Deflection board), LV2000, Couple of resistors, HV pot replaced, a few transistors replaced and a bad diode.
Re the pincushion or lack of it, yes it is a very 'square' image now which I'm happy with, Its just a shame my Tempest board has gone faulty so I'm currently not playing it... I love this hobby and 30+yr old electronics.
Thanks, good to know for future fixes.
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Well.....Bela's deflection board was repaired 100% back and sent back home to Hungary.
So I was back on getting Franck's 6100 back to Lofe FINALLY.
Last thing I had was a smoking resistor on the HV cage... Yet again, it was VERY valuable to be able to compare stuff with a good working HV board. I found one resistor to be open when it should be 2,2 Ohms. Also found that the bottle transistor on the cage was shorting to that cage...not good. Replaced the mica and silicon paste and reinstalled it, no more short.
Replaced the resistor and upgraded it to a 5W version at 3,6 Ohms as per the 6100 FAQ. While I had bought some of these I replaced the other 2,2 ohms resistor as well, also as suggested by the FAQ. once again, all transistors checked, all caps checked, I felt confident so installed it in Marco's working monitor and yessssssss running smoothly :):)
Next installed it on Franck's tube and frame and also used his deflection PCB. That was the one with the weird dark corner remember ?
Powered up, and to start with I noticed that the spot killer was on, despite having a picture. IIRC this was the board that had the wrong transistors in the deflection circuit so I suspected the 4 Mylar caps. Replaced them with 1 uF elco's (that's how we call electrolytic capacitors here) and BINGO ! No more spot killer led on, and no more weird black spot in the corner !
Next job was correcting the purity. Switched to res hash screen and purity was off. Loosened the yoke and managed to find the optimum location, rubber wedge mounted and yoke tightened. Still a bit of purity issue but was able to correct that with the purity rings. By the way, these rings were extremely tight , I could barely move them at all, was afraid to break the tabs.....I solved that by spraying some Teflon (PTFE) spray on the rings and the moving them, they moved like it was brand new after some turning :)
Further work was convergence, not too easy on this one, and it's not perfect but good enough for sure.
The res was weak on this monitor so I hooked up the Mueter rejuvenator and indeed the red gun is the weakest of the three but still in good condition so no rejuvenation necccesary.
To compensate I just upped the red color pots.
All in all a pretty nice picture, not as fresh looking as Marco's but very acceptable for sure.
Now there is just one issue left....I can't adjust the focus well enough. Turning the pot is not "instant" the focus change lags behind the turning of the knob, this is not normal. Also sometimes it "jumps" into and out of focus. Already checked the wire to the focus pot, was OK. Maybe it's the pin on the neckboard or the CRT socket, will check those soon. If not, it might be the pot itself and then I am afraid we'll have to order a new flyback.....
To be continued :)
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One more picture...
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SWEET ! :spaceace: :spaceace: :spaceace:
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Always nice to see your enthusiastic replies Etienne, at least one person reads and enjoys these write-ups.
I will stubbornly continue, as I see it as my personal log for reference in the future in the cloud :D
Just had another look at the neck board and man-o-man....
The wires running to the board, some of them really felt like they could break from the solderings any moment. When I wiggled some one actually did. So I re-stripped all of them and desoldered all of them.
Next I looked at the focus wire which runs to the CRT socket. Popped open the plastic cover and the poor thing was "hanging on" with just a single strand of the wire !!! I touched it and pulled it ever so slightly and it broke loose.....
So fixed that too. Too late to test now...tomorrow we will see if this is fixed too. If so, we can throw it in a box and ship it to La France ;)
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We are so impressed... That we have totally fallen silent :o :o :o :o
WELL DONE MR. LEVEL 42 ;D ;D
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I Like reading stuff like this.
same as the Rany Fromm videos (https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCf-EZoze_1mWNMi0XOf5amQ), or Adam's videos (https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC0Bzak63p0W4bL1mp8txEVA) , its very informative !
Its like back to school again ;D
Keep up the good work !
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;) I understand not everybody can follow some of the stuff i write and .....it is a lot of text sometimes....maybe I should video more ;)
Well these experiences with these 6100s have been absolutely good for me because I feel a LOT more confident with them now. I learned a lot about weak spots (and the 6100 if FULL of them :D) I didn't know about yet.
I think I will start Europe's first vector monitor repair company :) If you have problems with any vector monitors and want repairs, drop me a PM. Prices will be reasonable (can't say that about shipping though ! :))
I also learned that having a good working version of the monitor around is extremely handy to say the least ! Without Thwocker's 6100 it would have either taken me much longer or maybe not find some issues at all.
Soon I will have my very own 6100 with a great "box" around it :)
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Installed back the neck board but adjusting focus is still not working right. I'll need to order a new flyback :(
I guess no one in Europe is selling these right ?
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I absolutely agree, 6100's have a lot of weak points. :D
It is great to see that somebody can always defeat them. :D
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Andre, you're a CHAMPION.
For a dummy like me in electronics, you're a genious. My Space Duel thanks you too :)
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Installed back the neck board but adjusting focus is still not working right. I'll need to order a new flyback :(
Worth checking this thread:
http://www.ukvac.com/forum/electrohome-19-go7-focus-problem-solved_topic330620.html
I've fixed a couple of focus issues following this advice (ended up fitting new neck sockets to neck cards).
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Yup, you're right ! I got a another tip about the spark gap issues so I just swapped out the neckboard for the known working one on Thwocker's 6100 and the problem was gone !
Now, the CR-24 sockets are not available anywhere (well found one place, they were asking 42 euro for one, crazy but also understandable, but I wondered of that even would be a new part,
Anyway, I will have to open the CRT connector which will be hard to do without damaging it. I guess I'll have to desoldering it from the board.....
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You can find CR-24 neck sockets on some Hantarex 9000 neck cards. Those monitors used either CR-23 or CR-24 depending on which tube they used. Worth asking around if you're desperate as a scrap 9000 neck card can be a useful source for a CR-24 socket.
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OK I Desoldered The CRT connector and carefully cracked it open. Was a bit puzzled about what I found inside but I understand it now.
I definitly found the reason why the focus showed this behavior, I'll try to upload some pics this evening.
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OK I Desoldered The CRT connector and carefully cracked it open. Was a bit puzzled about what I found inside but I understand it now.
I definitly found the reason why the focus showed this behavior, I'll try to upload some pics this evening.
I'm getting very curious now :)
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OK this is the socket.....
By the way....these are unobtainable now :(
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This is what was left of the focus wire on the solder-eye, it was hanging on by 1 strand !
So I stripped it and resoldered it.
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Here it is pried open:
Below you see the focus wire soldered to the eye. Then the eye runs into a disc-shaped metal with a bump on top. (Ignore the small white circular things, those are broken off from the plastic cover because of the prying open of the cover).
Above that there is a wire in V shape hanging above it. This wire is connected to Ground via the PCB. So, if voltages get extreme, there will be a spark jumping from the disc to the V shape and so protecting the CRT. The distance between the disc and V is about 1 cm. a pretty big gap to jump for electricity ! :)
Now the metal runs on further to the top of the picture, it bends down (so the tube fits) and there is what I think the problem....because it is loose there. The pin (like a cross) you see on the top of the picture is the focus pin that connects to the tube.
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Same situation from the side:
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and here what I _think_ is the issue: I can simply lift up the pin !
However it almost looks to clean too be broken off.....it is almost as if it is meant to be this way...
So....I wonder if anybody knows...is it supposed to be contacting just by position or should this be 1 piece of metal all the way and should I try to solder it ?
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Re-Solder it.
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OK ! ;D
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Most of the people would throw this out and replace it, nice to see what is inside and it is repairable. :spaceace:
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Yup !
Except you can't replace it because they are not available. At least not for a normal price...and even so....probably not new.
Pin soldered, problem solved ! Woohoo ! ;D ;D
Saves Franck ordering a fly-back from the US :)
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Yup !
Except you can't replace it because they are not available. At least not for a normal price...and even so....probably not new.
Pin soldered, problem solved ! Woohoo ! ;D ;D
Saves Franck ordering a fly-back from the US :)
You sure it should be soldered? My check an other connector or a schematic to be sure....
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Well.......I dont really feel like desoldering and prying open Marco's connector.......although on the other hand it might be good to have a preventive look at the situation.....
However, I never doubt Speleo's words. I am small beer compared to him in terms of electronics repair skills.
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Well.......I dont really feel like desoldering and prying open Marco's connector.......although on the other hand it might be good to have a preventive look at the situation.....
However, I never doubt Speleo's words. I am small beer compared to him in terms of electronics repair skills.
Every classic gameroom needs are fire extinguisher anyway ;D
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Definitely, get a CO2 one. :)
But there are no worries about that for sure...Andreas was completely right:
Michelle from Italy (M K L on KLOV) posted this picture:
(http://forums.arcade-museum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=175940&d=1397147070)
So, it's clear the pins should be fixed together although it does look like they are constructed of two parts.
Even better, Michelle explained that the socket number is not actually CR-24 but EIA/JEDEC designation B8-274.
CR-24 is just the number used for the B&K rejuvenator adapter for this socket so we should forget about that number.
Also, he posted this picture to show his current inventory of those brand new CRT sockets which is AWESOME as they arent available anywhere else AFAIK.
(http://forums.arcade-museum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=176021&d=1397216115)
Naturally I ordered a couple, won't hurt to have these on stock :)
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Saves Franck ordering a fly-back from the US :)
Thanks! 8)
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Well...Atarimania's WG6100 is finally on it's way south :)
Last saturday I still did a last minute fix on it. I had noticed that the screen was sometimes "jumping" a bit in size, both vertically and horizontally.
I suspected the pot in the HV cage that adjusts B+. I measured it and could see that the voltage was jumping a bit when the screen jumped too (it hast to be 180V). So the pot was bad. Not a big surprise after 30 years.
Didn't have a proper one so I went to my local parts supplier and bought 2 and quickly soldered it in. Adjusted it and had a nice fixed size picture, problem solved.
Then it was off to the first Eurocade/RGE 2014 meeting in Hilversum. Chris was coming over and he kindly agreed to take back the 6100 to the Brussels area, which is a lot closer to Paris then Ridderkerk :D
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Great news! 8)
I'll post pictures of the monitor in the cab soon :)
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How soon ? French soon or Dutch soon ? ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D
(Says the guy who took over 2 years to fix a damn monitor ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D)
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You're right, I'm late... I put the monitor on the cab when I came back home and the game works fine :)
I have to make a video :oops: For the moment I use all my free-time (and I don't have a lot of free-time) for the building of the new gaming room...
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Waha, totally understand Franck, as I said, I was the one who took so long to fix it :) :) :)
But I _am_ happy to hear it's working fine ;D ;D
In the mean time, Béla's second 6100 deflection board is ready to return home.
Put in one new MPSU56 transistor. Checked all other components. Apart from one resistor that was not a 0,5W but a 0,25W (replaced now by correct one) I couldn't really find any bad parts. I did replace one fuse holder set though, again for corrosion reasons, just to rule out any troubles.
So I threw it in Thwocker's WG6100 and it worked just fine. Béla reported strange problems though (spot killer kicking in and blowing up bottle-cap transistors) so I decided to give it a good duration run.
Since I didn't want to leave the monitor unattended I was forced to play Berzerk while I was seeing the monitor in the corner of my eye....
After about 3 10000+ games of Berzerk (I'm out of shape) I saw the 6100 go blank.....I was quick to throw the SW power switch.....
time for more investigation.
I took some macro pictures from the header connectors and found what I already should have known:
(http://forums.arcade-museum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=179900&d=1400190225)
(http://forums.arcade-museum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=179901&d=1400190236)
(http://forums.arcade-museum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=179903&d=1400190245)
Naturally I renewed them all.
Also, by gut-feeling, I also replaced all 4 caps in the spot-killer circuit, a good decision as I discovered later, more about that soon....
Put everything back again, more Berzerk, Joust and Robotron playing done and after 2,5 hours of trouble free running I was sure enough it is time for the board to travel back to Budapest :)
First however, I have to get out my Atari 8 bit stuff to copy some floppies ;D
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Seems like those small caps make a lot of trouble in these bad quality WG boards.
Thanks for the repair my Friend, cant wait for the 8 bit stuff. :D
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In between doing the several coats of primer on the Q*bert I'm not wasting any time...
So I fixed yet another 6100 :):)
This was a tough cookie. It was delivered with the simple yet very exact problem description: No Image :):)
I had no reason to not trust the owner about that so I didn't even hook it up before "doing the basics".
I really don't like working on dirty stuff so the first job was to clean everything. Used paper towel and some mild cleaning stuff for chassis and tube, the boards were removed from the chassis and thrown in water and washing detergent in the kitchen sink and gave them a good cleaning with a brush :):) once clean they were dried directly in the oven at a comfy 50 degree, with the fan on of course :)
Then the basic stuff like testing all transistors and diodes, replacing all mica's and thermal grease on the chassis transistors (and finding out that two were not mounted correctly, which causes them to not be able to transfer their heat into the chassis metal......), resoldering all connectors, checking fuses, measuring all caps etc. etc.
I found out that apart from 1 or 2 caps on the HV board, ALL the caps on it were bad ! One of them was a Nichicon and that's the first bad Nichicon I've found ! The ESR was still OK but the capacitance on the low side...since I don't want the owner to have another problem in the (near) future I replaced all caps on the monitor by Panasonic 150 degree one's.
With the DVM on my multimeter I could not find any bad diodes or transistors so now it was time to hook it up.
No picture but I did hear HV and deflection chatter.
Measured B+ and it was way too low at 100V. Adjusted the HV pot but I couldn't get it any higher than 110V. Replaced ZD902 and bingo, B+ is back to 180V.
This shows that you cannot test a Zenerdiode with a DVM (well unless it's shorted or open).
I now kinda expected to get at least something on screen but apart from some very faint glare when I turned up the screen pot there was nothing.....I also smelled some heating up electronics, not unusual but I "fingered around" anyway and noticed that one of the huge resistors and one of the chassis transistors really heated up badly and quickly......mmmmm, are we sure all transistors and diodes are OK ?
Measured all of them again, no problem to be found.
So I swapped in the (known working) deflection board of the 6100 in my Gravitar.....and there it is, working !
So it must be Somehting on the deflection board for sure....
Decided to "shotgun" it by comparing every part in that section.....and I found one resistor to be into the mega ohms while it should be only 3.3 Ohms....replaced it and bingo, we have a picture !
Still need to do convergence but otherwise it's ready to go home.......but there is yet another 6100 waiting for its turn :):)
In theory that one should be a bit easier.....we'll see but it's getting the total overhaul anyway :)
Here's a list of what I did on this one:
REPAIR LOGS:
Neckboard: P323
cap replaced
bent focus pin, focus was going bad when heating up
HV Board: P316
Bad caps ! => C901,902,909,914 - Replaced ALL caps on HV board
Bad connection on focus pot, fixed
Q906 mica insulator replaced, cleaned of old and dry thermal grease and applied new
replaced R918 pot
replaced ZD902, was bad (had low B+, only 110V)
Deflection board: P327
LV2000 installed
replaced F700,was 4A should be, and is 3A now
resoldered all connector headers
replaced all tantalum caps C800,801,802,803 with 1uF electrolytic
resoldered posistor, was loose
all other caps checked and OK
all diodes and transistors checked and OK
replaced R612 was bad (no picture, just some "glow" when turning up screen pot, power transistor heating up quickly and badly)
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So I fixed yet another 6100 :):)
Well done :D
I always enjoy reading the effort put in to keep our classics alive, great work!
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Monitor at home!
Its looks like new!! So clean :-* :-* :-*
And now... let's install it.....
Weahhhhhhhh!!! Picture is impressive, bright!!! Fantastic!!!!
ANDRE!!! YOU'RE THE BEST!!!!!MANY THANKS!!!!
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Well done guys. Why is it easy for us to get things done together and so hard for those politicians ??? ;D
Nice job André, repairman at night, parking lot stalker in the morning :P
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Yiha, very glad it arrived safely.....that neck(board) is SO risky on the 6100....no surrounding protection at all....
One thing Franck, you should try to get the proper cover for the HV unit because there may be some interference from it in the picture.
It should be in fact not too hard to make one yourself from some "standard" metal mesh stuff....
It's great to see it in the cab and displaying Tempest :)
Hah, yeah Leo.....I must say I returned home and thought I'd stay up but after posting about the exchange I did go back and caught some nice hours of hard earned and needed sleep ;)
Now....that second 6100 is one weird beast.....the B+ stays way too high at 260V. I actually found two bad parts, ZD902 (open) and ZD900 (6V across it, not sure if it was bad or the wrong type and we will never know as it broke when I removed it....). didn't have a 13V Zener around so I put two 6.8V Zenerdiode in series and.....still B+ at 260V......argghhh.... :(
But I WILL win this battle too....:)