Dragon's Lair Fans - Arcade Lifestyle
General Chat => Technical Area => Topic started by: gyruss on March 04, 2012, 05:20:22 PM
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So i got this pole position standing in my kitchen, very cool but it isn't working. >:( When i turn the cab on i can hear the start-up sound (namco explosion and 3 beeps), it's possible to coin up the game (with button next to the self-test switch) and start a race. The break, gas and steering wheel all seem to be working great and the red light on the pcb is on but there is nothing on the screen. :( The cab has definitely been worked on before, this is what i know:
1. They replaced the monitor with a hantarex, i had a (supposedly) working one laying around so i decided to swap them, with no results, you can hear a very light crackle (only with the second monitor) but there is nothing on the screen.
2. The two wires/cable bundles (sorry, don't know what the correct name is) that are supposed to be connected to the monitor have been hacked, they did a shitty job and one wire is loose, tried to reconnect it with no results.
3. The previous owners bypassed the F3 fuse, they simply connected the 2 wires together with no fuse in between.
4. The pcb edge connector is removed and everything is solders directly to the pcb.
5. The wires that are connected to the coin up mechanism also seem to be modified.
So what's the first stap to take? Keep in mind i'm a total noob so please have some patience. ;)
Here are some pictures to make things a bit clearer:
The hacked wires that are supposed to connect the monitor
(http://i1069.photobucket.com/albums/u471/Gyruss99/IMAG4949.jpg)
As you can see the ground isn't connected at all (this one is also for the monitor)
(http://i1069.photobucket.com/albums/u471/Gyruss99/IMAG4948.jpg)
The bypassed fuse wire
(http://i1069.photobucket.com/albums/u471/Gyruss99/IMAG4944.jpg)
The fuse holder
(http://i1069.photobucket.com/albums/u471/Gyruss99/IMAG4943.jpg)
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pieter, do you have neckglow on any of the monitors? can you show us as picture of the connector which attaches to the monitor chassis?
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I feel a great urge to visit you with my desolderstation, solderstation and a new edge connector when you got it working to fix that edge connector issue.
sure its working flawless with this fix, but it hurts my brain even thinking about that the wires are soldered directly to the board.
(http://www.opdenkelder.com/pics/crazykong/fase1/board3-4.jpg) (https://www.dragonslairfans.com/smfor/index.php?topic=2054.msg25251#msg25251)
Clickpick to go to that topic..
Looks like they bypassed F3 because the mountpoint has broken off..
as for the rest, seeing the hacking they did, dont take this the wrong way, but i would invite etienne, andre, and robin for a cup of coffee to tackle thisone ! hahaha
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I actually would let the soldered wires on the PCB as they are....You may very well recreate the contact problems and heating again if you now make a connector. As long as it works....
First fix the other things...
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pieter, do you have neckglow on any of the monitors? can you show us as picture of the connector which attaches to the monitor chassis?
There is no neckglow at all! This are the connectors to which they soldered the original harness:
(http://i1069.photobucket.com/albums/u471/Gyruss99/IMAG5009.jpg)
I feel a great urge to visit you with my desolderstation, solderstation and a new edge connector when you got it working to fix that edge connector issue.
sure its working flawless with this fix, but it hurts my brain even thinking about that the wires are soldered directly to the board.
Looks like they bypassed F3 because the mountpoint has broken off..
as for the rest, seeing the hacking they did, dont take this the wrong way, but i would invite etienne, andre, and robin for a cup of coffee to tackle thisone ! hahaha
It isn't the most elegant solution but it seems to be working atm so i'll just leave it this way (for now). Of course all you guys are welcome whenever you want but i really would like to get it running asap...
When i visited Andre this weekend he told me the monitor probally isn't getting any current. He explained me how to measure it but stupidly i forgot, do you guy's mind explaining this to me again?
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I see your point Andre, and thinking about it, i forgot that it was a pole position (which have lots of trouble due to bad edge connector connections)
i agree with you, leave the board as is.. (although a good edge connector will look better.. ;))
Monitor plugs look like Hanta to me
anyway, you got two conectors there going to the monitor:
(left on the pic ) yellow-orange-red-brown, that is the power lead
(right in the pic) white-yellow-black-red-green-blue, that is the signal lead (white hor sync, yellow vert sync, black is ground, and RGB is... well... RGB ;D
so there must be current on the "left" plug.
lets see what the hanta manual says..
be right back..
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I am Back ;)
looks like you need both 220 and 128 volts on this connector according to the manual.
My guess is that the 220 volts part is for the degauss option, since that does not run through the isolation transformer.
128 volts AC between the red and brown lead, and 220 volts AC between orange and yellow.
so measure those pins carefully (dont touch the metal of the wires ;))
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Thanks!
I measured them both: 223 and 129 volts...
Edit: don't know if this has anything to do with it but the sticker on the monitor says this, 120V?:
(http://i1069.photobucket.com/albums/u471/Gyruss99/IMAG5010.jpg)
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Looks like your power is ok then..
Power is present, no neckglow...
Dead monitor maybe ?
Lets see..., i can drop a semi working Hanta 900 in the car and pass by friday after work if you like.
I will be working in the neighbourhood of "huizen, laren & blaricum" this friday.
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Stick to Etiennes story, that label is on the metal side part of the monitor right ?
I bet they put the tube and chassis from the Hantarex into the original frame.
make a "total" shot of the monitor so we can see...
Those voltages are OK so there has to be a problem with the monitor, actually both, if you dont get neckglow...
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Was thinking the same, that metal does not look like hanta to me :D
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Looks like your power is ok then..
Power is present, no neckglow...
Dead monitor maybe ?
Lets see..., i can drop a semi working Hanta 900 in the car and pass by friday after work if you like.
I will be working in the neighbourhood of "huizen, laren & blaricum" this friday.
That would be great Etienne!! :spaceace: :spaceace:
Stick to Etiennes story, that label is on the metal side part of the monitor right ?
I bet they put the tube and chassis from the Hantarex into the original frame.
make a "total" shot of the monitor so we can see...
Those voltages are OK so there has to be a problem with the monitor, actually both, if you dont get neckglow...
I tried them both for the second time, the 'original monitor' seems to be totally dead, when i connect the spare one i can hear some electricity running through it but no neck glow. Here's a picture from the monitor with the 120volt sticker.
(http://i1069.photobucket.com/albums/u471/Gyruss99/IMAG5011.jpg)
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Like andre says, and i assumed: its a hanta 900 transplanted into the original cage. ;D
is the other also a hanta 900 ?
if so, we can at least check where the problem lies by connecting my working chassis to the tubes..
did you swap chassis and test then ?
Could be you got one broken tube and one broken chassis..
in that case you maybe can make one working of the two..
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Yes, it's the same monitor but indeed in a different frame/cage.
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I bet it looks like this :
(http://www.opdenkelder.com/pics/eurocade/sunday/8.jpg)
Thats how a MTC900 looks like in its original setup
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Yes, it does!! :D
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Not sure if Gyruss has reached the chassis swapping level already ;)
The chance that its the tube is low...
The monitor is very dirty, did you CARFULLY clean the glass of the neck with a paper towel with a bit of glassex spraye on it (on the towel).
Maybe you just dont see the neck glow...
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I just saw that the neck board of the second monitor was a bit loose, reattached it and the screen came up!!! I can see some movement (the road) but overall its garbage.
(http://i1069.photobucket.com/albums/u471/Gyruss99/IMAG5015.jpg)
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i think if you turn pot 13 , you can have a bit better screen..
sync problem i think
The 900 has a terrible neckboard connection, very "loose" :'(
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YES!!!!! I've got something on the screen! Thanks you very much for your help Etienne and Andre!! :spaceace: :spaceace: :spaceace: :spaceace:
There are 2 black bars on the side though, red lines running across the screen and the colours are a bit messed up but it's working!!!
Will a cap kid solve these problems?
(http://i1069.photobucket.com/albums/u471/Gyruss99/IMAG5020.jpg)
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Not necessarily, capkits can do alot of good, but its tough to say that a capkit will solve this
Better is to measure all the caps on the chassis and see if there are bad caps.
anyway, Great you got something on the screen now, that saves me a trip to my mother to pickup my monitor ;D
if you check the manual, you will see that pot 17 and 18 are for height and width..
try to turn those.. ;)
in fact, just turn every pot you see to check if there is any improvement.
just remember +- how the pot was in case it does "nothing"
Also maybe Andre can test your tubes with his Muter rejuvinator to see / check the condition of your tubes..
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Thanks mate, will try that and report back!
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Oh, and try to turn pot 10 and 11 very slowly, i think that the brightness is also to high now..
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Great topic and nice fix guys!!! ;)
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if you take another "monitor stand" is the red bar in the middle still there then ?
I mean its coincidentally on the same height as the metal from that chair you are using...
(it could be interference..)
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Those 900 neckboards are evil bitches...one of my monitors came with some foam between the protective metal and the neckboard to keep it in place....I hate those neck connectors !
Good work so far. Indeed you just have to adjust the horizontal size a bit to get rid of the dark sides.
Looks like the focus can be a bit better too or is that the camera. DO NOT mess with the color pots 1 upto 9 (yet) !!!
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I guess gyruss is only playing at the moment ..... ;D
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;D ;D ;D ;D ;D Hard to blame him !
More likely he's working a late shift...
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I wish but i cut my hand with a piece of broken glass a few hours ago, kinda difficult to type atm so more from me tomorrow....
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Just got a change in my agenda.. not visiting HLB this friday...
so i cannot drop by friday Gyruss.
Anyway, looks like you got screen, so the main reason for me to pass by is not there anymore..
Still would like to play it ! ;D
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No problem Etienne!
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I wish but i cut my hand with a piece of broken glass a few hours ago, kinda difficult to type atm so more from me tomorrow....
and that was yesterday.. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vxz7UkOQ5v4) ;)
Any updates on this great machine ?
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Update:
I think the black bars on the left and right side of the screen are supposed to be there, because when i put the monitor back i saw that the cardboard bezel is covering both area's. I can only get rid of the red lines when i turn red all the way down. :(
But................ i turned the machine back on today and after 30 minutes i started to smell something burning! :o :o
So there's definitely a big problem somewhere!! >:( >:( >:(
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Did you see anything smoking ?
Prttey sure the bars shouldn't be there. The red lines: turn back the "screen" pot a bit, it should be on the flyback....but you have other problems now....
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*snip*
...I think the black bars on the left and right side of the screen are supposed to be there...
*snip*
That's how mine looks.
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No, didn't see anything smoking just a nasty smell, i suspect it's the monitor.
Lol, i was feeling pretty lucky this week for having a working pp, guess that ended quick! ;)
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No, didn't see anything smoking just a nasty smell, i suspect it's the monitor.
Lol, i was feeling pretty lucky this week for having a working pp, guess that ended quick! ;)
I too thought my monitor was having issues yesterday - turns out the neighbors had their fireplace going :lol: :oops:
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No, didn't see anything smoking just a nasty smell, i suspect it's the monitor.
Lol, i was feeling pretty lucky this week for having a working pp, guess that ended quick! ;)
Only one way to find the cause....turn it on again....
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hmmm 30 minutes no reply from gyrus...... :-\
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;D ;D ;D ill look into it this weekend...
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Ah good you made it out in time :D
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We could bring sausages and chicken legs to cook... ;D
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I'll just continue this thread with my repairs :-)
So I had two chassis with unknown defects :
- First one had a clicking sound
- Second one had pwer issue and picture error.
The second one was fixed quickly. Fuse holder plus Fuse was replaced and one loose wire at the brightness and contrast potis.
First one I ask Winnie for help. He is very experienced TV repair guy from the german forum AZ. So his report was
- O/W-Modulator defect
- wrong bridge coil with false pinout installed.
After the repair action from Winnie I`m now sure that both chassis works 100% bullet proof.
So I`ve installed the chassis again, but the game shows some missing colors and red stripe on areas with much contrast. Now I`ll take care about
- the harness,
- the missing fuse 10A for the transformator :)
- add the sense mod to ARII
- add again connectors for the PCBs
- clean the rusty pins on the PCB.
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So my todo list was
- harness : fixed 50% could be better
- Replaced PCB connectors
- Fixed burned 5V pin on video connector
- Sense Mod
- cleaned the PCB
And I think I nailed the source for the missing red color.
I traced down the schematic for PIN 9 RED via R103->R59 -> down to
Custom PROM 136014-137.
This one has a strange addition from one of the pre-owners. There is a capacitor between pin 12 and GND.
When I cut this capacitor I get screen with lot of funny characters with red working. But the game isn't playable.
When I leave the cap in place the game works without red.
So I guess this PROM is defect. Additionally the pre-owner was trying to bridge the PROM.
Where can I get a new one? Is it possible to re-program this PROM?
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Nope. PROMs can be programmed only once.
ROM = Read Only Memory, programmed during production in factory.
PROM = Programmable ROM, electrically programmable once, so Atari bought these empty and burnt them, not the chip maker
EPROM = Erasable Programmanle ROM, these can be erased with UV light and reprogrammed by "user".
Speleo_DE can program PROMs. he saved my butt when I accidently inserted a PROM the wrong war around in a friend's SW board. Thank god only the PROM was blown up, inserted the one Andreas' made and it was running great again.
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Replaced PROM with new programmed one. Red is working fine now and the picture has no distortion anymore. Hence there are some stripes like scanlines in the sprites itself. Anyone?
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Okay, after soom reading I`ve this infos:
Small cars and signs - PROM 12N, 13N
Manual on page 3-47 points out that part no. 136014-125 and 125 are affected. But I don't find any IC spec. And it`s not listed as custom IC. What type of IC is used for 12N and 13N?
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Okay, misson accomplished.
This was the starting point in gyruss kitchen.
Red was distorted.
(http://i1069.photobucket.com/albums/u471/Gyruss99/IMAG5020.jpg)
Replaced Color PROM 11E RED
(http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-LVARKbwR0eY/UKtthVtId6I/AAAAAAAAEz0/wBnE-QITjys/s320/IMG_0175.JPG)
(http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-OzgSSjcwLvo/UKttiVoP0pI/AAAAAAAAEz4/yf4Sv45oIAI/s320/IMG_0176.JPG)
(http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-8aUhOd0SvFw/UKttjto2zhI/AAAAAAAAE0E/YYWjBW64BWQ/s320/IMG_0177.JPG)
Sprites still looked bad. Every second lines is missing.
http://www.arcade-museum.com/manuals-videogames/P/polepos.pdf
I checked schematic 15A Motion Object Line Buffer. Control Logic for Lines is in 74S158@8D (control logic) and the lines are recombines in 74S298 (recombines lines). Line Buffer is needed in SRAM 2148L-2 @ 9F, 10F.
9F and 10F are 55ns RAM; 137199-00, used 2149 ones.
First I replaced the SRAM and the magic happened...
(http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-S_5JjfTMJ7U/UKttu90sQ7I/AAAAAAAAE1Y/AmaUdqGzm8I/s320/IMG_0191.JPG)
(http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-xTuwg_yJgI0/UKtttzZ4LoI/AAAAAAAAE1I/BksbWDAOWYk/s320/IMG_0188.JPG)
This are the bad boys
(http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-s4RK3Kc04Y8/UKttpjZwDwI/AAAAAAAAE0s/V1jQxtgZMrY/s320/IMG_0183.JPG)
Desoldered them...
(http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-N-rX4uRIcLU/UKttqi5ozVI/AAAAAAAAE00/UrTdsIceqiY/s320/IMG_0184.JPG)
replaced them with sockets
(http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-vebpSHw4vIM/UKttsodXZHI/AAAAAAAAE1E/qfjhIlIcDTk/s320/IMG_0186.JPG)
some more pics
(http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-3Oje5PpfyfI/UKttl-Lsg-I/AAAAAAAAE0U/JUG8Wqhj-jk/s320/IMG_0179.JPG)
replaced PROM 11E
(http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-1Xsva72DfWg/UKttk0dxRnI/AAAAAAAAE0I/dZF8KOEBGsA/s320/IMG_0178.JPG)
replaced connector
http://bencao74.blogspot.de/2012/11/pole-position-repair-log.html (http://bencao74.blogspot.de/2012/11/pole-position-repair-log.html)
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Nice, congratulations! So now it's fully working? Are you going to do something about the outside?
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Hey,
I want to remove the battery and add one of this NVRAM stuff. Then I want to improve the power harness inside the cab and add one missing fuses ;)
I`ve receive from SuperUlly the Plexi for the back. So this will then the first part of the enclosure restoration. Perhaps I`ll give then the CPO a try.
But most important, the game is running smooth :)
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Great work, nice to see it's running perfect. :spaceace:
Thanks for the technical overview also, we learn more and more each day about pcb repairing. ;)
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Good Job ! :spaceace:
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great game, great job :spaceace:
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http://ppclone.blogspot.nl/ like it's almost ready!