Dragon's Lair Fans - Arcade Lifestyle
General Chat => All the rest => Topic started by: liquidx on February 28, 2011, 12:59:13 PM
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(https://img.skitch.com/20110228-cydaf1urkb5qnwqu8sy16m6kgd.preview.jpg) (http://www.rogeribars.com/)
more here (http://www.rogeribars.com/)
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Nice i always wondered how the famicom version of the advantage looked like. And now i know (now i also now when i could never find a pic of it )
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Sorry but....I don't really get it. Are these joysticks offered to set an alarm clock ?!?!
What a waste....
I also don't like they say the Wico was the best joystick on the market and that they say the Kempston was not one of the best.
Here's what they write about Kempston:
Kempston Micro Electronics was an electronics company specialising in computer joysticks and related home computer peripherals during the 1980s. Kempston was based in Kempston, Bedfordshire, England.
Bullshit. The Kempston was just another brand for the Suzo Competition Pro. Suzo is (and was) a Dutch company and the joysticks were built in Rotterdam. I know because classmates did an internship there.
And that, IS the best home joystick ever, and I mean the early (and RARE) all leaf (buttons AND stick) version of course. I bought it when I had the Atari 2600 and it still works 100% today :)
Yes, the Wico is good in quality, but it's LOOOOOOONG shaft gives it a HUUUUUUGE travel and thus too slow. It's also simply too big too hold. Even today (and I am big) I find it uncomfortable to hold it. The Suzo is much more compact, has an ultra short travel and throw and thus is the perfect stick.
Ow, well OK it's all just MHO. ;D ;D ;D
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Back in the days, no matter what I was always coming back to this one:
(https://www.dragonslairfans.com/~chrischris/arcade/joystick_thearcade.jpg)
...and it still works 100% today.
It was like my excalibur, a perfect and undestructible killing weapon ;)
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Yep, that's the follow-up of the Competition Pro. Basically the same stick.
The drawbacks of that one were the single button (which meant bending in your thumb much more) and of course this one had the micro-switches. Still beats the Wico though IMHO.
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I had 2 joysticks in my days of the C64
one was the stick mentioned by Level42, and back in the days i added a switch as you can see as a kind of "autofire" :D
(http://www.opdenkelder.com/pics/suzo1.jpg)
but i did not have the leaf variant, that is , the buttons where leaf, and the stick was microswitch..
(http://www.opdenkelder.com/pics/suzo3.jpg)
You may think, whats all that wire there, and mods, but in fact i loved that stick so much that i hacked in a keyboard controller (https://www.dragonslairfans.com/smfor/index.php?topic=787.0) so i can still use it in mame !
Also i comfirm that they where made in rotterdam, heck, its even "etched" in the PCB.. ;D
(http://www.opdenkelder.com/pics/suzo2.jpg)
as for my other stick, that was "the Speedking" by Konix wich in some games gave the advantage of "holding" the joystick in hand..
(http://www.thosewerethedays.de/items/joysticks/konix_speedking.jpg)
for example, decathlon, or hyper olympic (track n field) played really well on this stick IMO, although nothing beats the Suzo..
more sticks here http://www.thosewerethedays.de/joystick_galerie.htm (http://www.thosewerethedays.de/joystick_galerie.htm)
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The Suzo was really a Euro thing I guess. Not only was it used on a load of Euro "general" cabs but they sold LOADS of the home-version.
It was THE standard back then.
I must say that I am bit surprised to see that set-up of the micro-swithces. I had always thought they would be set-up just like the arcade version (so around the center, side-ways, like this:
(http://kowal.itcom.pl/foto/joyCCCP4-04.jpg)
but then, I never remembering opening the MS version....
The leaf version I have does have the leafs centered around the stick's end. Also, the buttons have "proper" leafs, I mean they look exactly like the arcade one's, but then smaller. There is no PCB inside it.
I have to admit that when I first looked at your pics I thought it was not a real Suzo Etienne. The buttons look so different...but I guess the STC Rotterdam says enough (although it still could be a copy).
Nice hack by the way. I loved doing hacks in those days too. The most seen hack was a switch on the Atari 1050 floppy disk drive to enable writing on the back side of a floppy without having to cut holes. Simple but cool. Of course we did it neatly and installed a red Led to indicate it was in "dangerous" mode ;)
It's surprising but I can't find any pics of my version of the Suzo, so I'll make some myself and post them here...
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I have to admit that when I first looked at your pics I thought it was not a real Suzo Etienne. The buttons look so different...but I guess the STC Rotterdam says enough (although it still could be a copy).
As far as i remember the price of that SOB in that time i think its not a copy ;)
I have used the one that chris is describing too, wich was in some games nice too
i remember the one that i had was beige with brown stick and button, and the button had a microswitch too in that one..
the one on the pic is the only one i still have today..
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Hehe, I remember clearly paying F 75,- at that time.
With devaluation I guess it equals 75 Euro about now....
At the time I was at school and couldn't afford much, so yes it was a small fortune.
However, after having broken both original Atari 2600 joysticks (and what a pain they brought !) and after that buying a Spectravideo stick (this one:
(http://alkislarlayasiyorum.com/images/sipsak/40610_20101106135122.jpg) which broke even SOONER than the original Atari's (!!!) I figured it was a good investment.
I had fallen for the Spectravideo because.....hey I was a kid. It looked very cool, the flight-stick like look. Of course I didn't realize it would suck in any non-flying game (which almost non was;) ). I also thought the suction cups to "stick" it to a table was a good idea. I was wrong on everything of course....
So Etienne, with the Suzo, you didn't play it while holding in your hand ? I did....that's why I find the Wico too large. I guess the user was supposed to put it on a table or something and play that way, but that never worked for me. The Suzo was compact enough for me (even as a kid ;) ).
Took a nice series of pictures to compare the Wico vs. the Suzo.
(http://gallery.me.com/andre.huijts/100881/DSCF6469/web.jpg?ver=12989974640001)
What I find a little surprising is that the Suzo is actually just as "long"/"deep" as the Wico. The Wico is much wider though (square)...
...and it is MUCH taller:
(http://gallery.me.com/andre.huijts/100881/DSCF6472/web.jpg?ver=12989974800001[img]
Sides:
[img]http://gallery.me.com/andre.huijts/100881/DSCF6473/web.jpg?ver=12989974840001)
(http://gallery.me.com/andre.huijts/100881/DSCF6474/web.jpg?ver=12989974890001)
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Suzo inside:
This is what started my love for leafs, and it has never stopped:
(http://gallery.me.com/andre.huijts/100881/DSCF6475/web.jpg?ver=12989974990001)
The base:
(http://gallery.me.com/andre.huijts/100881/DSCF6478/web.jpg?ver=12989975070001)
Mmmm, funny how memory tricks you sometimes. I thought we had our 2600 earlier than that....but figures don't lie...
Ye olde Suzo logo. That phone number doesn't work anymore :P
(http://gallery.me.com/andre.huijts/100881/DSCF6479/web.jpg?ver=12989975120001)
Detail of the button:
(http://gallery.me.com/andre.huijts/100881/DSCF6480/web.jpg?ver=12989975200001)
Another brilliant feature of this version of the Suzo Competition Pro, extremely short travel leafs :) :
(http://gallery.me.com/andre.huijts/100881/DSCF6487/web.jpg?ver=12989975640001)
(http://gallery.me.com/andre.huijts/100881/DSCF6489/web.jpg?ver=12989975750001)
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Compare to the Wico:
(http://gallery.me.com/andre.huijts/100881/DSCF6488/web.jpg?ver=12989975680001)
Not only is the travel much longer, the resistance on the button is also considerably higher....not my cup of tea (tiring on long playing sessions and KILLING on fast shooters..).
(http://gallery.me.com/andre.huijts/100881/DSCF6490/web.jpg?ver=12989975790001)
The Wico base. Uses longer leafs (that's why they needed the large base).
(http://gallery.me.com/andre.huijts/100881/DSCF6481/web.jpg?ver=12989975310001)
The base. The Wico is slightly younger (week 27 compared to week 12 for the Suzo. I only bought the Wico (in a set) a couple of years ago.
(http://gallery.me.com/andre.huijts/100881/DSCF6484/web.jpg?ver=12989975380001)
Compare the travel between Wico and Suzo:
(http://gallery.me.com/andre.huijts/100881/DSCF6485/web.jpg?ver=12989975520001)
(http://gallery.me.com/andre.huijts/100881/DSCF6486/web.jpg?ver=12989975590001)
May look like not too much difference on the pics, but it's a WORLD of difference in reality (Think about moving left to right quickly...)
Both the Wico and Suzo are excellent built joysticks. The fact that they are still trouble free after 27 years says enough. However all the plusses of the Suzo makes it a clear winner.
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I also have a red-topped Suzo somewhere here that I also bought a couple of years ago. That one has micro-switches. Can't find it right now, but as soon as I do, I'll examine it to look if it matches Etienne's.
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You make a complete review of the two sticks in very high detail :spaceace:
Im impressed ::)
I did use it most of the time on the table, but also in hand, depending on the game
but just imagine "running" in track n field, and pushing the button on the right moment while holding it in the hand...
that i could only do with the speedking, and only with the Suzo on the table.
That first stick you described with suction cups, i can confirm, it looked handy so it would not move .... but the practical use proved different, the Suzo moved less on the table :lol:
i mean, you could litteraly "blow" it of the table, that sucktion cups did everything but it did not suck to the table :D
so one thing was true about these models, they "suck" :D
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Yeah, the name was correct: The Quickshot was quickly shot.
When it happened I returned it to the seller. It was less than 2 months when it broke (The Atari's got JUST up to over 6 months, which was the warranty for the 2600 in those days :twisted: :twisted: :evil: (Not allowed anymore here).
I got a new Quickshot without a problem, but that too was broken (really broken) within about the same time. So I gave up on it....and forked out the cash.
I just calculated that it cost me 0,0076020190962719698351882259928237 per day...... ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D
(Note that is DUTCH GUILDER cents....not Euro... ;D
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Those were the days.. where you could go and buy a joystick repair kit ;D
(http://abload.de/img/joy_rep1ibzn.jpg)
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...which showed how bad it was :)
What failed on mine was the white inside of the stick, the ring at the bottom. Apparantly, Atari made an improved version of it later (pretty late apparantly):
http://www.best-electronics-ca.com/joystick.htm#Atari%20CX40%20Joystick%20Users!
This company is THE source for any Atari home products parts. I remember they were already around in the 80's.
Also fun to see they also sell improved PCB's for the dome contacts.
Yes the rubber cover also tore, but I didn't care because that didn't influence game play. I never knew those repair kits were around then. Or I simply had had it with the original Atari stick.
It was not the greatest BUT there were MUCH MUCH worse sticks around. I remember playing this POS:
(http://www.geekvintage.com/images/commodore-64-1311-joystick.jpg)
Maybe this was another reason why I steered away from Commodore. If you EVER tried it for a few seconds you know how terrible it is.
The triangular stick was already completely wrong in the hands. But then, when you tried to actually move it, it seemed like it was welded down to the base. OK I like short throw, but this was impossible to move at all. Well almost :) A nightmare. And the button....it was very hard to reach, the shape was all wrong and again impossible to operate with human hands.
I wonder what kind of person was responsible for creating some crap like that.....did they actually ever try it ?!?!
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It was not the greatest BUT there were MUCH MUCH worse sticks around. I remember playing this POS:
(http://www.geekvintage.com/images/commodore-64-1311-joystick.jpg)
Looks like a commodore joystick to me that they sometimes sold with the C64 IRC..
EDIT:
forget what i said, i did not read under the picture of your post andre.. ;D
And yes, it is a piece of crap (http://www.opdenkelder.com/pics/puke.gif)
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Funny to see though that there was indeed a stick with "autofire"
(http://richardlagendijk.nl/foto/cip/info_input_02.gif) (http://richardlagendijk.nl/cip/article/item/input_devices/nl)
Click the pic for the source.
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I actually liked the original Atari CX40 joystick very much, it's still my favourite joystick of all times. Maybe just because it was my first, who knows. As everyone I managed to break mine too, and I think I even bought one of those repair kits.
When I bought my first C64 I also got me one of the original leafswitch Competition Pro's which I still have and of course it still works perfectly.
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HAHA !!!
During my "attic evacuation" I just found back my micro-switch Suzo joystick:
(http://gallery.me.com/andre.huijts/100881/DSCF6518/web.jpg?ver=12995324420001)
(Sorry no time to clean it).
I think it's safe enough to say that the one's with the black handle and two buttons are the extremely rare all-leaf one's and the one's with the red handles are the one's with micro-switches for the handle and leafs for the buttons.
Now, as you may remember I was a bit surprised about Etienne's version of it. Something in my mind said that that was not what I remembered from a Suzo Microswitch joystick. In all honesty, it looked.....mmmm, not the Suzo quality I was used to. So I even suspected it of being a bootleg....
Now, I saw one like Etienne's at the retro computer fair last sunday, and noticed that there are three small screws on the bottom. That's different because both versions I have have four larger screws:
(http://gallery.me.com/andre.huijts/100881/DSCF6520/web.jpg?ver=12995324330001)
(if you watch closely, you can find out where I spend the first 20 years of my life !!! :D. This is funny, I am 100% positive that this is the underside of my all-leaf stick. I transplanted it because of the missing rubber foot).
So, I of course had to open it up to see if I was getting really old already, or that my memory was still fine:
(http://gallery.me.com/andre.huijts/100881/DSCF6515/web.jpg?ver=12995324360001)
YES ! THAT is the micro-switch Suzo I've always remembered. Like a proper arcade stick. Look at those micro-switches, SWISS MADE ! Nothing but quality here. And of course still the leaf buttons exactly like the one's on the all-leaf version.
I'm pretty sure that these two versions were produced in Rotterdam.
And then.....I guess that then happened to what seems to happen with all great products. They follow the path that leads to darkness !
Very likely some f-ing management dodo figured out they could:
a) earn more money or
b) lower the selling price to "beat" the competition
by reducing the quality and coming up with the PCB version, with the el-cheapo (looking) micro-switches and "fake" leafs).
I'm also pretty sure they moved production to the far-east by then...
ORRRRRRRR......it's not a real Suzo. I still leave this option open...we all know how it works in China.... but the S.T.C. Rotterdam is pretty much a watermark, it is also used on the professional joysticks....
I'm not saying it's necessarily a bad stick, but I do have the feeling (and it actually also feels like) the least of the series....
So, apart from this two button version, there is of course also the single button version. AFAIK this has the same set-up as the red-top micro-switch version. They do differ in button set-up though. Some have leafs, some micro-switches.
Ahhhhhhh, now I can rest ;)
(Etienne, you MUST try the one's I have when you drop off the samples ;D ;D ;D)
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FLASH...and suddenly I realise:
(http://gallery.me.com/andre.huijts/100881/DSCF6478/web.jpg?ver=12989975070001)
SOOOO, because I changed the bottoms of the sticks, that little date sticker is NOT correct for the leaf stick !!! I already thought we had the 2600 much earlier than 1984 !!!
Hahaha....mmm, now I have to open the other one again to see if that has any date mark...
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....nope nothing.....My estimate would be 1981/1982 something like that...
By the way, I thought up a great name for the all-black, al-leaf Suzo Competition Pro.
For it is fierce. It is relentless. It is bold. It scares it's enemies. It demands respect. It is deadly precise and has no scruples for it's victims: it is:
the Suzo DARTH VADER !
(Also matches nicely with a 2600 Darth Vader :D :D)
But.....I hear you ask.....does the saga end here ? Is this all there is ......well.....let's say that (another analogy with SW): They tried once more, many many years later. With new technology. And although it looked the same....it really wasn't......
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....because many, many years later, it was already the next millenium, a daring company had a great idea:
How about releasing a Suzo joystick that can connect to a computer ?
(http://gallery.me.com/andre.huijts/100881/DSCF6528/web.jpg?ver=12995365970001)
This way we can play MAME, and all those other great emulators in the way they were meant to be played !
Excellent idea !
However......between idea and final product, somethings went wrong....
Here are the original and the re-release:
(http://gallery.me.com/andre.huijts/100881/DSCF6522/web.jpg?ver=12995365380001)
(http://gallery.me.com/andre.huijts/100881/DSCF6523/web.jpg?ver=12995365490001)
(http://gallery.me.com/andre.huijts/100881/DSCF6529/web.jpg?ver=12995366080001)
Uh-oh, made in China....well OK, there's plenty of good stuff coming from there......but not this :(
(http://gallery.me.com/andre.huijts/100881/DSCF6530/web.jpg?ver=12995366200001)
They look very much alike. Of course we see the obvious extra buttons. But the trained eye sees the flatter large buttons. It sees the structured ball-handle which was smooth (what else do you want in your hands?) on the original. It also sees that they didn't use the old molds. Some dimensions are JUST off.
The buttons: they look alike enough....the new one slightly flatter, not an improvement, but that's not the biggest issue:
(http://gallery.me.com/andre.huijts/100881/DSCF6525/web.jpg?ver=12995365680001)
Original: when you push on the side. It only slightly tilts and it actives the switch.
(http://gallery.me.com/andre.huijts/100881/DSCF6527/web.jpg?ver=12995365870001)
Repro: when you push on the side, the button tilts greatly but the worst thing is that it DOESN'T activate the micro-switch ! You have to press EXACTLY in the middle to use it....it feels worse than it looks...
(http://gallery.me.com/andre.huijts/100881/DSCF6526/web.jpg?ver=12995365780001)
The whole button seems to "float" on the small micro-switch top...ugh... it is by far the worst part about this stick.
But it doesn't stop there...
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So, let's see what's inside:
(http://gallery.me.com/andre.huijts/100881/DSCF6532/web.jpg?ver=12995366300001)
Hooray, we have the "old" micro-swtich set-up back. Of course I would have prefered leafs, but OK, a good micro-switch is OK too.
But that's where it fails again. Cheap, clunky feeling, noisy micro-switches, never heard of that brand (LEMA in Dutch it sounds like LAME-a :D):
(http://gallery.me.com/andre.huijts/100881/DSCF6534/web.jpg?ver=12995366420001)
Also note that they saved a screw. They actually mounted it with one screw !
But it's not only the switches...there is something else that makes it feel very bad....but I never understood what it was until now: They forgot to put in a rubber !!!! On the original, the motion is dampened with a rubber collar somewhere up the shaft. They forgot about it on the new one !!! This makes it feel VERY clunky. The only response you feel is from the (high resistance) microswitch, and then it hits the micro-switch casing very hard ! "DONK"...ugghhh...
Anyway, I made a little video to show the differences:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H1vGjgoscsU
If you take what you see and triple it you know how it feels....
The only good thing about this stick is indeed the USB connection. The best idea: take it out and move it to a real Suzo !!! :)
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Well, i enjoyed reading all of it, and i need to say, now i see the inside of your stick, i agree with the statement that "my" Suzo is the worst in rank
the cost saving theory is the winner i think, it is defenetly constructed cheap.
Now i maybe understand why i liked the speedking sometimes better than the suzo.
But it was still a very playable stick imho
and i need to say that the "button" with the microswich (found in the one that chris describes) felt way better than my (shitty fake) leaf buttons
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You're going to love the all-leaf :)
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I just found out that there's a USB adapter on the market:
(https://www.dragonslairfans.com/~chrischris/arcade/USB_Adaptor_Amiga_Joy.jpg)
I should try to get that to bring my good ol' (https://www.dragonslairfans.com/~chrischris/arcade/The_arcade.jpg) back to life...
Thanks a lot for all the info by the way guys. :o
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Wahahaha.....well I'm still surprised that there's not _that_ mutch info about the Suzo's on the net.
I think that's mainly because these sticks never were very popular in the US or maybe not even sold there ?
It's about the same for arcade sticks, when I was still heavy into the MAME "scene" I noticed that the Suzo's weren't very much loved over there. Thought my local brand deserved a little more attention.
But these small details really make or break a control IMHO...
That's a nice interface. I could take out that tiny PCB of that Speedlink stick and make a box like that...mmmm not a bad idea :) The RS-232 plug is not really ideal for the rubbery Atari connectors though but I can imagine that it's pretty hard to find the "real" connectors for it....
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i do know that its model is famous enough that they used it as housing for the C64 DVT..
(http://www.opdenkelder.com/pics/dtv.jpg)
dont have time to open it up now, so some pics from the net need to do it for now:
http://www.google.nl/images?hl=nl&xhr=t&q=c64+dtv&cp=5&wrapid=tljp129956333821308&um=1&ie=UTF-8&source=og&sa=N&tab=wi&biw=1362&bih=562 (http://www.google.nl/images?hl=nl&xhr=t&q=c64+dtv&cp=5&wrapid=tljp129956333821308&um=1&ie=UTF-8&source=og&sa=N&tab=wi&biw=1362&bih=562)
and after reading this :
http://jledger.proboards.com/index.cgi?board=dtvhacking&action=display&thread=1645 (http://jledger.proboards.com/index.cgi?board=dtvhacking&action=display&thread=1645)
I feel the need to start modding again ;D
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Here is a pic from my collection, please let me know, if you want me to open some of them ;D
(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/_-UA8BV99Des/TXY671MdwlI/AAAAAAAACeI/0792LwZzotk/s800/Arcade%20day%20001.jpg)
(https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/_-UA8BV99Des/TXY68_V2qYI/AAAAAAAACeY/rNHQkECDNVw/s800/Arcade%20day%20004.jpg)
(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/_-UA8BV99Des/TXY69AuwhsI/AAAAAAAACeg/eCpclMSkF-U/s800/Arcade%20day%20005.jpg)
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OK admit it Belike, you have a fetish for "airplane" joysticks ;)
It would be cool to see the insides. I wonder if there is any with micro-switches or leafs.... :)
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??? ;D ::)
Speedlink is currently offering a golden 25 years anniversary edition of the Competition Pro http://www.speedlink.com/?p=1&s=1&t=9 . How is that possible? I bought my first one in 1984 and there where advertisments for it in 1983 magazines like this one from Telematch 5/83:
(http://abload.de/img/competitionpro54b78.jpg)
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""Competition-Pro" Joystick aus den USA......"
WTF !?!?!?! :twisted: :twisted: :twisted: :evil: :evil: :evil: :evil: :twisted: :twisted: :twisted:
they imported these babies from their NEIGHBORS, The DUTCH. Only yesterday I happen to run into a guy who had worked at Suzo back in those days....we kept talking about those joysticks they made :)
That looks to be the one I have though (black handle). Yes they were there earlier, as I know from my story above...
But so what, if Nintendo say's Mario became 25 in 2010, everyone can screw around with dates. As long as they can poor some money out of it.
It's also a crying shame that Speedlink piece of shit.
Most FUGLY thing I've ever seen !!
I'm warning you, don't look at it for too long or your eyes will start to turn red (either from hurt or from wanting to cry....)
(http://images.speedlink.com/prodpics/_spl/SL-6603-GOLD/large/sl-6603-gold_rgb_001.jpg)
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While I agree that it is ugly, I happen to have one that is even uglier, look at this:
(http://abload.de/img/competitionprofromhelnnxyc.jpg)
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At least that looks to be an original one from the 80's ?
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Most likely, yes (bought in on a fleamarket).